debian installer ?

[pieter96]

Hi folks,

I would like to test and implement scalix very much, but I don't know how to install scalix on my ubuntu 7.04 .

Somewhere on the wiki I found several python installers but can someone explain to me how de the debian 11.02 scalix deb files can be installed by these python installers ? I have never worked with python........

will scalix in the future support debian OS ?

thanx

[kanderson]

If you're confortable with Debian, then I'd recommend taking a look at Xandros Server. Xandros will come with Scalix preinstalled, Updates are easy and it has a great management console that will create a user who is valid in Scalix, Samba, etc all at the same time.

To be really blunt, I'd rather see Scalix spend time on improving Scalix, rather than making another installer. There are already too many. If you look at this forum, there are dozens of people who have hit issues when trying to upgrade. Zero of them are on the supported platforms.

Choosing anything other than RHEL (or CENT), SLES or Xandros is a mistake that will cost people their free time and their sanity. It means that a 5 minute upgrade is a multi-hour hassle done with crossed fingers.

Seriously, don't do it. If you need an OS that costs nothing, go with Cent. If you prefer apt-get and other debian tools, use Xandros. If you don't mind paying for an OS, and want to standardize on an enterprise OS through the company, choose SLES, RHEL or Xandros.

But don't choose the community OSes. They work 100%. Absolutely they do. But they're much more difficult to maintain. Avoid them.

Kev.

[pieter96]

If you're confortable with Debian, then I'd recommend taking a look at Xandros Server. Xandros will come with Scalix preinstalled, Updates are easy and it has a great management console that will create a user who is valid in Scalix, Samba, etc all at the same time.

To be really blunt, I'd rather see Scalix spend time on improving Scalix, rather than making another installer. There are already too many. If you look at this forum, there are dozens of people who have hit issues when trying to upgrade. Zero of them are on the supported platforms.

Choosing anything other than RHEL (or CENT), SLES or Xandros is a mistake that will cost people their free time and their sanity. It means that a 5 minute upgrade is a multi-hour hassle done with crossed fingers.

Seriously, don't do it. If you need an OS that costs nothing, go with Cent. If you prefer apt-get and other debian tools, use Xandros. If you don't mind paying for an OS, and want to standardize on an enterprise OS through the company, choose SLES, RHEL or Xandros.

But don't choose the community OSes. They work 100%. Absolutely they do. But they're much more difficult to maintain. Avoid them.

Kev.

Xandros server is very expensive. the same with RHEL.

didnit I tell yuo that I was looking for a real good opensource groupware thing. ?

what about support scalix for open suse ?

I still don't understand why a very stable distro like debian is not supported by scalix.....

[kanderson]

If you want a free OS, use Cent.

The problem with Debian is that it's not a "real" release.

Very few people use Stable, because it's too old. So they use unstable or testing. But those change frequently, so it's hard to nail down a platform to test against.

Moreover, in terms of numbers, FAR more people use Debian Derivatives like *buntu than Debian proper. And with the *buntu LTS releases being stable for the long term, that's far more likely to be supported, but still next to zero.

The workaround for Scalix is to provide instructions and community support for those installs. Which they have done. These instructions do work, and there are many people using them. However, the tradeoff is that it's more work. But that's why it's a community release.

I'm quite certain that if you wanted to write a proper installer for the community release of your choice, then Scalix would be happy to assist with it. But for them, it makes more sense to target a couple of big distros, and simply support them. SUSE and RedHat are by far the most popular commercial releases. So supporting them makes sense. As *buntu is rapidly gaining ground on RedHat and Suse, and because they offer a LTS release similar to RHEL or SLES, I'd suspect that eventually this MAY be supported. I've never heard rumor about it, nevermind any official talk. And lets not start one here.

If you search the forums, you'll see that there are requests for Gentoo, MacOS, *BSD, etc, etc. Debian is in that same category. In the mean time, don't use it. It's not supported, and it won't be any time soon.

Kev.

[bobw]

If you're confortable with Debian, then I'd recommend taking a look at Xandros Server. Xandros will come with Scalix preinstalled, Updates are easy and it has a great management console that will create a user who is valid in Scalix, Samba, etc all at the same time.

To be really blunt, I'd rather see Scalix spend time on improving Scalix, rather than making another installer. There are already too many. If you look at this forum, there are dozens of people who have hit issues when trying to upgrade. Zero of them are on the supported platforms.

Choosing anything other than RHEL (or CENT), SLES or Xandros is a mistake that will cost people their free time and their sanity. It means that a 5 minute upgrade is a multi-hour hassle done with crossed fingers.

Seriously, don't do it. If you need an OS that costs nothing, go with Cent. If you prefer apt-get and other debian tools, use Xandros. If you don't mind paying for an OS, and want to standardize on an enterprise OS through the company, choose SLES, RHEL or Xandros.

But don't choose the community OSes. They work 100%. Absolutely they do. But they're much more difficult to maintain. Avoid them.

Kev.

Choosing any OS should NOT mean hours of installation or configuration issues just because a certain program was not written to open source standards. If other developers can write mainstay applications that run on Ubuntu as well as RH or Xandros, why should it be a challenge for the developers of this package? I think your response is rather arrogant when you chide someone for not using your preferred flavor of Linux just because this application is poorly written.

[kanderson]

I have to disagree.

I'm responding to this as Kanderson. I have no affiliation with Scalix, and if you are mad at me after reading this, know that I do not speak for Scalix.

Scalix is open. It provides for community support, as well as for commercial.

This is the same as Debian.

And in the same way, If you want to run Debian, you have a hideous installer, REALLY old versions of almost everything in the "stable" version, and "RTFM" support. On the other hand, you can take Debian in either Xandros or Ubuntu flavors, and see a nice version which is well supported by a worldwide commercial team which will also provide SLAs and onsite technical support.

Similarly, Scalix is available in the community version. It has been for several years, and I have yet to see any returns to Scalix from what they have so far made public. (Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think of anything that's made it back to the main releases as far as I know). And this includes the installer. So in what has to be the most "Debian" of responses, "RTFM".

Or, you can choose the methods that provide more hand holding and commercial support and things like that.

Open Source means it can be done. And Scalix completely provides that. Open Source means the tools have been provided for you so that you can install it on almost any version of Linux that you can dream up, and/or extend it in whatever way you'd like. (See the community support around Funabol for an example of that)

Open Source does not mean that the provider is obligated to provide a version on any flavor which is requested. In fact, you'll find that in most cases, the DISTRO packages the software for themselves. And I'm 100% certain that if *Bunbu called up Scalix and said "Hey, we'd like to build an installer for you so that it's easier to install Scalix on *buntu" Scalix would say Yes. Heck, I'd bet they'd offer a direct phone number to someone like Florian who could assist if they hit any significant problems.

Similarly, as part of the community using Debian in whatever flavor, let me ask this as a question. What have you returned to them? Do you provide documentation? Code? Hosting services or Bandwidth?

How about time on the forums answering questions from people who assume that Open Source means they get things for free, but need to give nothing in return. Often including courtesy. Do you spend a lot of time doing that?

Scalix has chosen to release code for some specific Distros because that's what is most commonly requested. They've provided the tools (and even the instructions) for people wishing to use some other Distro. I think that's more than enough.

Having ranted about all of this now. I'll also mention that there have been hints dropped in the forums recently that would indicate that an *buntu installer may well be coming.

From a personal note, most people prefer to know in advance that what they're doing is dumb, and wording that anything other than bluntly is a mistake because it'll be ignored. I let you know bluntly that you're planning to build a server that isn't supported and will be difficult to upgrade. You can ignore that advice if you wish, others certainly have, and things have worked fine for them. On the other hand, if you're having a hard time with the installer, you should know in advance that upgrading can (and likely will) be much worse. We (myself included) will help as best as we can. But the best help I can give is to keep you from having those problems in the first place, and that's done by using CentOS, RHEL, SuSE, or Xandros.

Kev.

[kanderson]

I might be alone in my rant, but in terms of recommending CentOS over ANY other community supported distro, I am not.

viewtopic.php?t=9521

If you see 3 people, all familiar with Scalix for a long time, all saying the same thing, It means something.

Again, this is Open, You can ignore that.

Same as ignoring Winmodem advice didn't mean you COULDN'T use the modem with Linux.
Same as ignoring the advice to always sign in as root can be ignored.
Same as ignoring the advice to make backups can be ignored.

We're trying to save you learning that the hard way. Ultimately though, that choice is yours.

Kev.

[bobw]

I might be alone in my rant, but in terms of recommending CentOS over ANY other community supported distro, I am not.

viewtopic.php?t=9521

If you see 3 people, all familiar with Scalix for a long time, all saying the same thing, It means something.

Again, this is Open, You can ignore that.

Same as ignoring Winmodem advice didn't mean you COULDN'T use the modem with Linux.
Same as ignoring the advice to always sign in as root can be ignored.
Same as ignoring the advice to make backups can be ignored.

We're trying to save you learning that the hard way. Ultimately though, that choice is yours.

Kev.

The point I was attempting to make is that if this solution wants to call itself "prime-time" then it should be as open as the packages I mentioned. Choosing to write for a limited number of distros is one choice but using code and processes that are adaptable to other distros is how you make it into the big time. As an Ubuntu user, you offer me only one solution and that is to no longer use Ubuntu. Isn't that kind of short sighted? It certainly doesn't make me want to invest my time or money into Scalix, In case nobody around here has noticed, Ubuntu is rapidly becoming a mainstay distro and reaching as many users as the other mainstays like RedHat who I started out with years ago. Ubuntu is undoubtedly one of fastest growing distros in popularity because of the level of support, ease of installation and the fact that grass doesn't grow under it with regular new releases coming out almost annually.

I think as a niche player, Scalix should be calling Ubuntu and asking what they need to do to get into the current and next releases unless of course, the average user can use Scalix as a standalone distro which they can't. It's almost like a tire manufacturer telling me that the best way to use their tires is to buy a different car. Please! General Motors is not about to design their cars around your tire!

[mikevl]

Hi

There are many distros out ther in the market place at the moment.
Turbo Linux, Ubuntu, Slackware, bsd, Gentoo, Lindows, Knoppix, Mandrake etc.

Each distro has its following. Some are big in the US, some are big in the UK, some are big in Asia etc. But each linux has it's quirks and differences and development cycles.

If I were a software developer it may imaginabiley be difficult to keep up with all the distros and develop a plane to support them all. Samsung Contact while it was arround supported many more distros than Scalix does. However Samsung Contact made no money so is not around any more. Supporting many distros is just fine untill you need to develop the next release of your software. Then the testing for each release on each distro and regression testing becomes a huge barrier to getting error free code out in the market place.

Althought some distros are growing in popularity for many and varied reasons, for most of the people who use distros Other that RHEL, SUSE & Xandros they do that because the main attracting of the distro they use has some particular percieved advantage and mostly because it is FREE. Although supporting a great number of distros may be cool it would lead to more bugs in the Scalix code, much longer release cycles and a hugh increase in the size of the team of engineers developing Scalix.

An increase in the development team must be funded. Would this in general be funded by people who wish to use a distro which is FREE.

In genral people who by one of the main distros and pay for it do so because they value the certification and support options that come with their distros. These people/companies also value their IT investment and see it as a critical part of their business. In general they want support and are willing to pay for it.

Scalix produces a community version and instructions for installing the product on other platforms via there non supported wiki. People are free to chose whatever distro they want but there may be issues.

Many other software vendors have gone down the same path for the same reasons
Here is a snippet from the Ubuntu forum re Oracle
http://www.the-love-shack.net/oracle-on-sid.html

so Why???????

Mike

[kanderson]

In terms of WHY *buntu isn't supported, perhaps the best answer is that it's new.

I'd agree that it's the the fastest growing distro. I'd agree that providing support on the LTS versions of Ubuntu (not every version) makes sense because they have the same focus as Red Hat or SLES. I'd even agree that an *buntu installer might have a series of benefits because it would likely run on ANY Debian based installer. And I'd also agree that Ubuntu has the benefit of an excellent support team behind it (Note that Digital Adrenaline is listed on the support page, so that can certainly be perceived as self serving).

On the other hand, much of this was true for Gentoo a few years back. Gentoo is still (in my opinion) the best Linux for a beginner because it teaches well. It still has the best documentation of any distro. But the mindshare behind it is dropping, and many users have now moved over to *buntu (Myself included), If you check the forums, you'll find me asking for a Gentoo installer. At that time, the answer was the same as it is for *buntu now. Similarly, back then, people asked for versions that would sell on *BSD too. These were always met with a "NO" answer. Today, that makes sense. Gentoo has more or less died out. I can't remember the last time someone asked for a *BSD version. If Scalix had build for one of those platforms then, they'd still need to support it now.

So, Scalix will choose a few platforms that make sense to them, and those will be officially supported. They'll give you everything necessary to install somewhere else. Which one you choose is up to you.

*I* am here saying that if you choose to take a path other than the official supported ones, you will feel some pain for it. Perhaps that pain is balanced out by the benefits of your distro. But be aware you just need to be aware up front that on the Scalix side, you'll feel some pain.

And I'll also reiterate that from what I gather on the forums, you can expect an installer for the next version of *buntu LTS. I'm looking forward to it, and I'm glad that yet another person is too. But I'll also say, I have one commercial customer running *buntu on a production server. And that customer is trying to move off. I've had a few ask, and I'd be comfortable supporting it, but businesses like Commercial Support. Red Hat and Novell are known for providing that support. THAT is the area that Canonical needs to address now. They need to move from a community to a commercial distro. Executives, in my experience, don't care at all about esoteric benefits, or community growth. They want to know that they are not making a large gamble when they make a purchase. Scalix is no different.

Kev.

[thomas73]

Althouh I understand and partly agree why there is no Debian support for Scalix, I think this would be really useful. Debian is THE system for servers: it is stable, easy to administer and approved (although the packages are quite old). There is some good news: at http://ti.dynalias.net/rd/programming/p ... _inst.aspx you will find a script which installs Salix on a Debian server. Works quite well and out of the box. Hopefully it will be supported a very long time...

[datalynk]

I have played with many distros, and I would certainly recommend OpenSuSe 10.2 and scalix as a good reliable marriage...

[kanderson]

I'll just say that as much as I Love SuSE (I do, read my previous posts), OpenSuSE for a production server is asking for trouble. It's fine for testing, but you basically have 3 options if you want to build and maintain Scalix yourself.

Your choices are:

Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
SuSE Linux Enterprise Server
CentOS.

Fedora and/or OpenSuSE are only temporarily supported, and the upgrade path for both of them is somewhat ugly. If you search the forums, you'll see that. They are meant for testing, and if I had my way, they'd be dropped completely.

Avoid them.

Kev.

[TGuY]

I run Debian Etch, used the provided .deb files, with a couple pointers from posts on here, and I had a completely painless install and upgrade path since 11.0.0. It might no be officially "supported", but the packages are there, and Etch is a great platform.

That said, there is def a learning curve with how this whole thing is packaged, and the fact that Debian isn't built around sendmail is questionable. I won't shell out for RH/SUSE though, and I am much more familiar with Debian over Cent, so I'm going to stay my path.

Thanks Scalix for a GREAT Wiki/Forum/Package!!!!!